NEB Podcast #68 -
Transcript
Interviewers: Lydia Morrison, Marketing Communications Manager & Podcast Host, New England Biolabs, Inc.
Interviewee: Anne Madden, Ph.D., Founder of The Microbe Institute
Lydia Morrison:
Welcome to the Lessons from Lab & Life Podcast, brought to you by New England Biolabs. I'm your host, Lydia Morrison, and I hope this episode brings you some new perspective. Today, I'm joined by 2024 Passion in Science Award winner Dr. Anne Madden. Dr. Madden founded The Microbe Institute and has dedicated her career to understanding microbes and educating others about their function and the benefits to both ecosystems and human communities.
Oh my gosh, Anne, I am so happy that you've joined me here today. Thank you so much for being at New England Biolabs. It's so exciting to have you here at our headquarters. And thanks for that amazing seminar that you just finished giving.
Anne Madden:
Well, thank you so much. It was a treat to be here and see this amazing place.
Lydia Morrison:
Well, I'm glad you've enjoyed your time so far, and I'm super excited to share your work with our listeners. Could you tell our listeners about The Microbe Institute that you founded?
Anne Madden:
Yeah. So we're a distributed nonprofit organization, and our mission is to reveal the beauty and utility of the microbial world or to democratize microbial discovery for a better tomorrow. And we do that by partnering with different groups to co-create, amplify, and accelerate the impact of projects that are related to microbes, typically interdisciplinary participatory projects related to art, education, and research. And again, I think our goal is really to make the world of the microbial cosmos accessible to anyone regardless of their age or background.
Lydia Morrison:
I love the term microbial cosmos. What does that mean to you?
Anne Madden:
When I say the microbial cosmos, I think of the world of living creatures around us that exists at a different scale. And it's the microbes that we're breathing, the microbes that we're touching when we're touching a doorknob or shaking a hand. But it's also the microbes that are in every bit of soil or on every pillow we face. These are creatures that are incredibly diverse, over a trillion species, most of which are unknown, and many are doing remarkable things for us every day.
Lydia Morrison:
So what made you want to found The Microbe Institute? What drove you to that?
Anne Madden:
I've spent most of my career as a microbiologist finding microbes in the world that could help us improve our life somehow, whether it was working with teams that found soil microbes that could create new antibiotics, or working with teams finding microbes in plants that could help increase the yield of crops while making agriculture more sustainable. And time and time again, we realize that the microbes around us are doing remarkable things for us. They're helping us every day. And yet that's not how most of the world thinks about microbes. Talk to most people, they either go like, "Ugh, microbes. We've got to figure out new ways of getting rid of them." Or they're like, "Microbes, that's kind of a niche thing. I don't think it's really relevant to me."
When all of our lives have been made longer, have been saved by microbes, have been improved by microbes. Microbes are helping us create a planet that's less polluted. They're creating ingredients that are critical to our research and making science possible. If you've ever met anyone using Botox on their forehead or enjoying the creaminess of ice cream that's got Xanthan gum in it, those are microbial products that are making life better.
Lydia Morrison:
It actually makes me feel better to know that microbes make Xanthan gum. I don't know why, but it makes it feel more organic to me.
So there are the microbes that people think about that are bad microbes, right? That are like, I don't know, maybe like the fungus growing on your strawberries that you left in your refrigerator too long. Or there's the pink stuff that grows in the corner of your shower when you haven't cleaned it recently. But really, there's microbes everywhere, right? There are microbes on my sweater. There are microbes on this table.
So what do we know about the world of microbes? How much have we discovered? And what kind of solutions, you mentioned a few that have helped improve human lives and agriculture, what are some other uses that we're finding for microbes? And where do you see them being used in the future?
Anne Madden:
Oh, gosh. It's hard to think about a part of our lives that are untouched by some kind of microbial application or microbial technology. So it can be somewhere starting off in your kitchen where you're enjoying a beer or maybe a bagel or something like soy sauce. All of these products are fermented from microbes. If you've ever enjoyed a loaf of sourdough, you know that that microbial community is critical to those flavors.
But then you wander over to the bathroom. Our cosmetics often have microbial slimes in them that help us have smoother, richer skin. Or you wander over to your garden and any plant is made possible because of microbes that are basically fertilizing it. Medications that we rely on, cholesterol-lowering medications or antibiotics or immunosuppressives or many cancer therapeutics all come from microbes. So again, it's hard to find an area of life untouched by some kind of microbial application.
And what's truly remarkable is that this technology all comes from a few microbes that we've discovered in the world. Almost 99% of the species that exist remain unknown to science. It's clear that wherever you are right now in the world, whatever room, whatever car, whatever space in your yard, there are microbial species that remain unknown to science, undiscovered, with technological potential we don't yet know about. And they're existing near you because 99% of these species remain unknown.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah, that's pretty amazing to think about all the areas of our lives that microbes do touch and how little we understand the breadth of microbes that are around us every day. How do you think the public can benefit from learning more about microbes?
Anne Madden:
So I think if the public learns more about microbes, number one, we all become a more scientifically literate society where we get to approach life with more curiosity. But I think beyond a pragmatic sort of increasing discovery, there's also microbes as a source of hope. When I talk to different audiences and they learn about the microbes that are around us that can do these remarkable things and how few microbe species we know of, there's this understanding that the world is not known. It has not been discovered by other people of the past, but rather we are filled with mystery in our immediate vicinity and that there are creatures that might exist around us right now that can improve our lives in the future. So I see a benefit of learning about microbes in terms of seeing microbes as a source of hope.
Lydia Morrison:
That's really interesting, and it's not a perspective that I've heard before. But I love it so much, I feel like it's very deep, and I think it does speak to that curiosity and drive that sort of defines scientists to me. Being a scientist is all about asking questions and being curious. And I love the idea that there's so much yet to be discovered in this area. So I'm really curious, what have you learned about microbe communities in the environments that we live in or work in or play in?
Anne Madden:
We live in a jungle at the microscopic level. And I think when we first think about that, that can be terrifying. You can start to feel your skin itching. But really, it's quite remarkable because these species that exist at such a small scale and they're so diverse, it means that the number of microbial species in one sugar packet's worth of soil is a greater number of species than there are animal species in the whole world zoos. So this is just to say that if you go over to another sugar packet's worth of soil, you've got a whole new planet's worth of animal species, basically.
So from this phenomenal diversity, you can find microbes that are capable of doing the seemingly impossible. So there are microbes that have evolved to digest plastic. There are microbes that have evolved to pull gold out of tap water. And there are microbes that can create these most beautiful pigments for natural dyes for fabrics and textiles. And all of these species can coexist with a microbe that might mildew your fruit salad. So this plurality of species that exists around us is truly phenomenal and unlike anything we can imagine, even outside of a jungle at the macroscopic level.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah, it's truly staggering. And I think that the way you discuss it really brings home the breadth of the unknown, I guess, in the microbe cosmos. I think that's a testament to what a great scientific communicator you are. And I'm just curious, as a fellow scientific communicator myself, why do you think that the communication of science is so important?
Anne Madden:
I think how we create change in the world is done by people. It's done by people's minds being changed, and it's done by people changing their behaviors. So as scientists and as science communicators, by sharing our science, by revealing why and what we're doing, we're able to provide information that allows for that changing of mindset and that changing of behavior. So science communication is critical because otherwise science will stay in a science lab and that's not where it can do the most change in the world.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah, certainly after living through the past five years, we all understand the importance of science in our lives and the importance of science collaboration in helping science move more quickly and helping bring helpful products like vaccines or diagnostic testing to individuals in a timely way at need. But I think that the way you explain it is very nice in that it really helps people change their thinking and behavior patterns, which ultimately really impact people's lives.
I'm curious, you've given a ton of different examples of how microbes impact our lives and the benefits that they can provide to us, do you have a favorite microbe species or a favorite microbe? And why is it your favorite?
Anne Madden:
One of my favorite microbes is a sort of little known yeast that's named Lachancea thermotolerans. And in past research, we found this inside the bodies of paper wasps. And this yeast has a remarkable ability to create flavorful sour beer. So in the strangest place that you can imagine, the body of a wasp, we found this microbe that can create flavors that some people have described as flavors that remind them of being with friends in their mother's garden in the summer. And I love that description. Chemically, we can support that and say that these yeast are producing aromas of sour apples and sort of fruity esters and volatile alcohols.
But this larger flavor experience that's brought to us by this little yeast is remarkable. I think it shows the power of microbes to create sensory perceptions and experiences that we've never had. So that's one answer.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah, I think that's a great answer. So is that microbe on the body of the wasp or within its digestive tract? Or I'm sort of curious how it's being carried around, as we're all carrying around microbes, both outside and inside, right?
Anne Madden:
Yeah, it's a great question. So when we were looking at the yeasts associated with wasps, we weren't discriminating whether it was on the outside or the inside, and it's likely both. But other groups have shown that wasps can carry yeasts in their body when they hibernate. So during the winter when yeasts kind of need protection from spaces that are hostile or there's no sugar source for them to feed on, they stay safe within the body, within the gut specifically of wasps. So whenever you're thinking about what's the value of wasps, well, those yeasts that are later going to be making something like wine are kept safe in a wasp.
Lydia Morrison:
And I've only ever thought about the cross-pollination aspects that a wasp is bringing to the table, but now I will also think of them as like a small Petri dish protecting their microbiome. And really staggering and really interesting how one single microbe from a wasp could be used to create a flavor palette that beer drinkers seem to really enjoy.
And I'm curious, as we think about the number of microbes that have yet to be discovered, do you see more applications of them in terms of food? Because we talk a lot about the flavor profiles and the tasting notes that you might see in some of the gases produced when these sort of microbes are consuming food or sugar. And I'm curious if there are, and I know we've talked about the antibiotic applications as well, but I'm curious if you think microbes will offer more development in food and flavor and drink profiles in the future? Or if they have more to offer maybe in the medical treatment field?
You've also talked a little bit about color dyeing or garment dyeing, and we actually did have a guest on a few months ago whose company is focused on garment dyeing with microbes, so I know that that's a much more green alternative to some of the chemical processes. But it seems like there's so many different aspects of our lives that could be really impacted by increasing our knowledge of what microbes in our immediate vicinity as well as, we haven't even touched on microbes at the bottom of the ocean, right? And what those are capable of. So I'm curious if you think there's one area of day-to-day life that you see these impacting more, or if you think there's just an endless possibility.
Anne Madden:
I think it feels like microbes offer us an endless possibility or an endless supply of new technology because when we think about microbes, we tend to think of them as a collective, microbes, a category. When really, we're talking about diversity that we have a hard time comprehending.
So if we think about all the world's different plants and we think about how we use them. Well, we use a lot for food. Love me a strawberry in the summer. We use some for lumber and building fantastic buildings and homes and all sorts of different things. We use them for carving art. We use them as sources of medication. We use them to create paper that people then write prose on that are kept for generations. All of these come from just a few plants, right?
And we have tons and tons of different microbes that are more diverse and have different skillsets. So to think of them as limited to one category of solutions, I feel like limits our understanding. Or I feel like it's more accurate to think of them as having many roles and that there will be microbes that will help healthcare and there will be microbes that will help with pollution, and there will be microbes that create better flavors. And they might be some of the same microbes, but it's likely that there'll just be trillions out there to help in different ways.
Lydia Morrison:
I think I'm starting to see why democratizing interest in microbes is so important and why having lots of different perspectives and ideas and curiosities applied to this problem, this sort of microbe cosmos, I'm starting to understand why that's so important because it seems like such a huge problem to tackle.
Anne Madden:
So many solutions to tackle, put it that way.
Lydia Morrison:
I was going to say, I felt like problem wasn't the right word, but I was struggling for something else.
Anne Madden:
Yeah, I think it can be dwarfing to think of all the things microbes do. They're creating technology that's worth trillions of dollars. So any single microbe creating any single application is worthy of a lifetime of a scientist studying. One microbe that can break down a forever chemical, that's going to change the world.
At the same time, microbes every day are impacting flavors that we know and we don't always appreciate. So microbes are key to the flavors in chocolate. And many of us have enjoyed the flavors of chocolate. They've been key celebratory moments in our life. We can crave them right now thinking about how they melt in our mouths. And yet maybe we didn't think about microbes playing a role in that. So there's lots of future technology possibilities with microbes, but I also love that they're helping us every day in ways that we don't always think about.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah. And I was just thinking, as you were saying that devoting one scientific career to a single microbe can be really rewarding, obviously I'm sitting across from you and I'm thinking of you as you're saying that. But it seems like you discovered your sort of, if we'll call your wasp yeast your first microbe, you discovered that quite early in your career. So I love that you have spent a large part of your career communicating about the import of microbes and helping educate others and have them become interested in what's happening in microbial communities.
And just one more question. As I know we're talking about individual microbes here and what an individual microbe can do, but what about the sort of communal aspects of microbes, right? Microbes live in these different communities. We've already talked about sort of the mutualistic relationship between wasps and the yeast that they were carrying. But what about solutions that these communities can offer together or that multiple microbes can offer together? Is that something that you spend time thinking about or that people are looking into?
Anne Madden:
Absolutely. So we can think of something as simple as a sourdough involves a microbial community. There's that bacteria producing those tart acids that kind of squeeze our salivary glands, and you've got that yeast that's giving rise to the bread dough and creating some of those fruity notes. But there's also microbial communities in our soil that are interacting together and against other microbes in order to support plants. We all are familiar with the microbiome inside of us that's helping us.
I think about this a lot when it's related to lichen. So lichen is this kind of moss-like thing that we see often on stones or tree trunks and the most hostile areas on Earth really. There's not a lot of other creatures looking to live in these spaces. And lichen is a community of microbes. So it's a fungus that's typically creating a kind of a housing structure, and algae or bacteria that are producing the food for the fungus. And together, they create this crusty creature that can survive the most hostile conditions. It can survive UV radiation, it can live where nothing else can. And it's a beautiful example of partnership making something stronger.
So oftentimes, when working with younger students, we talk about this as an example that's not just important in terms of what technology we can derive from it and not just important in terms of uncovering its ecology, but also kind of symbolically. It's creatures who could not be farther apart on the tree of life working together and being stronger because of it. Lichens can survive space flight and come back. Lichens can feed reindeer and other creatures when no other food source is around. Lichens are pretty amazing for being crusty stuff that we tend to ignore. So I think in seeing that significance of what diverse microbials can do, there's some wonderful learning to be done there.
Lydia Morrison:
Yeah. I think you've provided some beautiful examples today. And quite frankly, I feel like I know a lot more about microbes, and I find them a lot more intriguing and beautiful and moving than ever before. So thank you so much for bringing a new perspective to our studio today.
Anne Madden:
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me and for increasing science literacy the way that you all do.
Lydia Morrison:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Lessons from Lab & Life Podcast. Please check out our show's transcript for helpful links from today's conversation. And as always, we invite you to join us for our next episode when I'll be talking to an NEB technical support scientist and an NEB development scientist about the best practices for DNA cleanup. We'll talk about the history of DNA cleanup and the methods available, as well as share some guidance on selecting which method is right for your work. So be sure to tune in for DNA Cleanup 101.
